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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This is a difficult subject, but I feel needs to be shared with the TH community. As a background I installed the Livernois S1025 on my TH last year. At that point the vehicle had about 5K miles on it. I have really enjoyed the power and for the most part the vehicle has been driven relatively conservatively. I historically run E85 fuel in the vehicle. A few months back I received a “Lean Bank” code. I contact Livernois and their tech said to switch to 93 octane for the winter months, which I did. I live in South Texas and we do not have much of a winter, in comparison to the rest of the US.
Within the past month I have noticed the coolant temp increasing, from about 190-195 to closer to 210. Last week a Mustang GT350 pulled beside me on the road and I slipped the transmission in track mode and went wide opened throttle. All was great until about 5,500 rpm and it felt like I hit the rev limiter. I immediately pulled my foot out it and all appeared to be fine, but the temperature continued to increase. On Sunday, I stopped by a friends shop and were going to connect the TH to his scanner and try to determine issues. I also talked to Livernois on Saturday and they wanted me to purchase their remote tuner.
Prior to connecting the TH to the scanner I asked my friend to drive the vehicle. He was easing into the throttle and at about 4,500 rpm the same condition occurred- felt like it hit a rev limiter. At this point there was a bit of engine noise and an extremely loud bottom end knock. We limped the TH back to his shop and did some preliminary diagnosis. Absolutely not a valvetrain issue! My friend (very well known racer in the industry) is also a friend of the owner of Livernois and contacted him. He called back within 20 minutes- we discussed the issues and actually face timed so he could hear the noise. He agreed - bottom end failure- likely a rod bearing. Also primarily indicated that the failure was a product of fuel.
I have been in the hot rod game for over 30 years and understand that “If you want to dance, you have to pay the fiddler”! I have done much research this week and so has my shop buddy. I have to question how “HOT” the vehicle was tuned for a DD. No blame, I am a big boy.
The motor is currently being pulled from the vehicle. I have made arrangements for a stroker 426 short block to be built that can handle upwards of 1,,400 hp. I am also switching to a local tuner and not going to utilize the flex fuel tune. We will have separate tunes for 93 octane and E85. The shop feels that the stroked motor will produce about 950 wheel hp on a conservative tune- (Lemonade).
I will post photos and more info as we open the motor and assess the internal conditions.
Sorry for the extended text, but felt that I needed to share.
 

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Thanks for the summary of your issue and hope it is resolved. Keep us informed on the new motor and other developments. Hope all goes well for you. My tuner is Alex Peitz Performance here in Houston and installed a conservative tune for longevity and reliability based on my goal which is to run mid 10's. I took baby steps leading to my goal.
 

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Great perspective and actually refreshing to know guys like you are still out there.

Once the tear down happens, keep us updated as to what is found.

I’m going to going out on a limb and say it’s going to be a rod issue, not necessarily bearing. Curious also, what were the rpm shift limits set at?


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Thanks for the summary of your issue and hope it is resolved. Keep us informed on the new motor and other developments. Hope all goes well for you. My tuner is Alex Peitz Performance here in Houston and installed a conservative tune for longevity and reliability based on my goal which is to run mid 10's. I took baby steps leading to my goal.
This is the same camp im in with my 1025 package. I had my shop buy all the same parts and install and tune. They put me on a conservative tune yet I run on 100% meth (meth injection) not E85 because in massachusetts E85 is non-existent. To date I have had no issues although I dont beat this truck all that added power is for spirited driving.

They warned me about going too hard with the tune and blowing things up, I told them I needed reliability first and foremost.
 

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This is a difficult subject, but I feel needs to be shared with the TH community. As a background I installed the Livernois S1025 on my TH last year. At that point the vehicle had about 5K miles on it. I have really enjoyed the power and for the most part the vehicle has been driven relatively conservatively. I historically run E85 fuel in the vehicle. A few months back I received a “Lean Bank” code. I contact Livernois and their tech said to switch to 93 octane for the winter months, which I did. I live in South Texas and we do not have much of a winter, in comparison to the rest of the US.
Within the past month I have noticed the coolant temp increasing, from about 190-195 to closer to 210. Last week a Mustang GT350 pulled beside me on the road and I slipped the transmission in track mode and went wide opened throttle. All was great until about 5,500 rpm and it felt like I hit the rev limiter. I immediately pulled my foot out it and all appeared to be fine, but the temperature continued to increase. On Sunday, I stopped by a friends shop and were going to connect the TH to his scanner and try to determine issues. I also talked to Livernois on Saturday and they wanted me to purchase their remote tuner.
Prior to connecting the TH to the scanner I asked my friend to drive the vehicle. He was easing into the throttle and at about 4,500 rpm the same condition occurred- felt like it hit a rev limiter. At this point there was a bit of engine noise and an extremely loud bottom end knock. We limped the TH back to his shop and did some preliminary diagnosis. Absolutely not a valvetrain issue! My friend (very well known racer in the industry) is also a friend of the owner of Livernois and contacted him. He called back within 20 minutes- we discussed the issues and actually face timed so he could hear the noise. He agreed - bottom end failure- likely a rod bearing. Also primarily indicated that the failure was a product of fuel.
I have been in the hot rod game for over 30 years and understand that “If you want to dance, you have to pay the fiddler”! I have done much research this week and so has my shop buddy. I have to question how “HOT” the vehicle was tuned for a DD. No blame, I am a big boy.
The motor is currently being pulled from the vehicle. I have made arrangements for a stroker 426 short block to be built that can handle upwards of 1,,400 hp. I am also switching to a local tuner and not going to utilize the flex fuel tune. We will have separate tunes for 93 octane and E85. The shop feels that the stroked motor will produce about 950 wheel hp on a conservative tune- (Lemonade).
I will post photos and more info as we open the motor and assess the internal conditions.
Sorry for the extended text, but felt that I needed to share.
curious if the tune was not the issue why go with someone else?
What is the cause if not the tune? was it a **** happens thing? not looking to blame anyone just curious what you think.
I have got the lean bank code also but only after going to carwash place. got code 2 times and both times after carwash so I knock that to some water getting somewhere both times my code went away after a day or so.

do more research on the 426 I see all the guys doing it are no faster then the guys that are stock. if you go that big might go big whipple also
 

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Mine S1025 equipped jeep has also sh*t the bed. Went to give it some throttle, something popped and into limp mode we went. Now I’ve got cam sensor codes, the jeep won’t start and leaks oil when cranking. Working on getting a transport company together so I can it over to Alex in Houston.

Btw, I’ll have a S1025 PCM for sale soon if anyone wants to get a Livernois setup on the cheap.
 

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Mine S1025 equipped jeep has also sh*t the bed. Went to give it some throttle, something popped and into limp mode we went. Now I’ve got cam sensor codes, the jeep won’t start and leaks oil when cranking. Working on getting a transport company together so I can it over to Alex in Houston.

Btw, I’ll have a S1025 PCM for sale soon if anyone wants to get a Livernois setup on the cheap.


Oh boy, you and I have had our conversations, but honestly, sorry to hear that.

GL


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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
More info!

Well, after removing and tearing down the motor, the issue is bent connecting rods (3), that are visually bent. Others could also not be straight. The bottom end noise was the rods contacting the crank counterweights when rotating. Cylinder heads are fine and there is no evidence of a lean condition that created the failure. The current supposition is that the cylinders were flooded with fuel to the point to create a “hydraulic” condition that created the rod failures. This is also further justified by very wet spark plugs.
In conclusion, it appears that at the higher RPM ranges, the PCM switched to an air/fuel ratio to support E85. The short block and PCM are headed to the HEMI shop tomorrow and this will be confirmed shortly.
Thank you all for the responses and more to come!!
 

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Man, that's a lot of twist in the first photo. You were lucky that something didn't go BLAMMO!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Probably would not have stayed together much longer!
 

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WOuld hotter plugs have helped any?
one last question how long ago did you get tuned?
I remember Andy asking when I had got tuned when I had a problem. it led me to believe that there was an issue with older tunes. Thats just me thinking no idea if true or not.
I hope it works out for ya bro.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The vehicle was tuned in February of 19. I am a bit old school, but quickly absorbing this tuning game. Nothing necessarily against Livernois, but I will be utilizing a local tuner in the Houston area.
I recently had a similar experience tuning a Holley EFI Super Sniper system on my Corvette. I purchased the EFI from Steve Morris Racing with a base tune. He also provided a “live” tune via web. Got with a local tuner last month and the tune is much cleaner and we picked up about 75 rwhp on his dyno.
May be an old dog, but can still learn new tricks!!
 
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If there was fuel washing the cylinders it would certainly explain the high coolant temp. You should be able to see evidence on the cylinder walls as well.

I’m curious to wonder if there was a problem with the O2 giving the pcm a false read as to what fuel was actually in the tank.


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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Those are our thoughts exactly. This is also the basis for most tuners discomfort with the “flex fuel” tune concept. In the conventional EFI tuning process (Holley, Fitech, etc), the various computerized engine function adjustments are limited to a user predetermined value to keep this sort of issue from occurring.
We live and learn- with a hefty price tag!
 
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I continue to see E85 builds fail, with the common denominator always seeming to be inconsistent fuel content at the pump. I think I would stick to a pump gas tune unless a validated fuel source could be used regularly.
 

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Those are our thoughts exactly. This is also the basis for most tuners discomfort with the “flex fuel” tune concept. In the conventional EFI tuning process (Holley, Fitech, etc), the various computerized engine function adjustments are limited to a user predetermined value to keep this sort of issue from occurring.

We live and learn- with a hefty price tag!


Yes, coincidental that you threw a lean bank code before the big issue? ... that’s is the big question.

Pulling that sensor and even taking a look at the cats might tell you how long you’ve really been having this problem, and if it was just tune related or just a hardware failure.




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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Great advise- will do.
 

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Yes, coincidental that you threw a lean bank code before the big issue? ... that’s is the big question.

if it was just tune related or just a hardware failure.
you thru a lean code before this happened?
That is what I want to Know also tune or parts fail?
 

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I continue to see E85 builds fail, with the common denominator always seeming to be inconsistent fuel content at the pump. I think I would stick to a pump gas tune unless a validated fuel source could be used regularly.
he has the flex tune, so bad e85 wont just cause the issue. the tune will adjust. well I guess if the E85 is way way off?
I dont have as much power as running straight e85 but I "feel" safer mixing 91 and E85.
 
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