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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I would like to discuss fuel pump requirements for Trackhawks that have been modified to use E85. Assume that the build has upper and lower pulleys (~18 psi of boost), ID1300 fuel injectors and all other necessary mods as required for proper use of E85.



It is my understanding the dual fuel pumps in Trackhawks (TH) are the same fuel pumps installed in the high horsepower Dodge Redeye and Demon. They each produce 450lph for a total of 900lph. (If this is wrong, please correct my statement.) I also understand that E85 performance packages (e.g. Livernois 1025S) available to us produce around 850 whp and use the stock fuel pumps safely. I also saw a post that +1000Hp TH's are using the stock TH fuel pumps.


At what point should a build consider switching, for example, to a 3 pump system? I personally would like to get close to the 800Hp range on a properly built TH and need to know if new fuel pumps are required. Thanks for any feedback.
 

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We are told and it is proven that the 800 hp mark no pump is needed.
if you are going over that like a S1200 I would simply ask the tuner. Always ask the tuner, we need posts like for knowledge and keeps the form exciting but bottom line trust the tuner and do what they say
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
We are told and it is proven that the 800 hp mark no pump is needed.
if you are going over that like a S1200 I would simply ask the tuner. Always ask the tuner, we need posts like for knowledge and keeps the form exciting but bottom line trust the tuner and do what they say

I agree, ask the tuner but do not know what the final horsepower numbers will be so really do not know if new pumps are required. I don't want to spend the money if not necessary so am trying to determine the algorithm leading up to that decision. Appreciate the response.
 

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I agree, ask the tuner but do not know what the final horsepower numbers will be so really do not know if new pumps are required. I don't want to spend the money if not necessary so am trying to determine the algorithm leading up to that decision. Appreciate the response.
I have all this S1025 package with CAI and E85 tune theres a ton of other guys running the same and none need the pump. I have not stuck mine on dyno but id say 830hp I get this number from seeing what other say.
are you doing even more? I was gonna add ported snout and TB and still wouldnt need pump. just to give you idea.

what exactly are you going to run?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
No not higher than the 1025S package horsepower. My dyno awhp is 720 on 93 octane but want to switch to E85. The Sunoco stations here in Houston have true E85 according to my test kit analysis. My bucket list goal is to have a ligit 10 second Orca! At present run 10.9-11.0X depending on DA. Want to run at All Out Live September 13 at Houston Raceway for kicks.
 

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Energy density in E85 is way less than E0 (i.e. 93-100 octane "pump gas") so it takes a lot more pump to run E85 than E0 (a rough number is 1.5 gal of E85 has the same energy density of 1 gallon of E0). Don't look at the HP in isolation to make a decision, a 1000hp E85 build is going to require more fuel flow (and thus injectors, pumps, etc.) than a 1000hp E0 build

On any multi-pump setup make sure you understand the failure mode and how the PCM/tune reacts. Many an engine has come apart because one pump of a multi-pump setup died but the other pump(s) stayed working grenading the engine as it went super-lean. If a vendor is selling a "multi-pump drop in kit" ask them how they protect against single pump failures at high flow rates.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Energy density in E85 is way less than E0 (i.e. 93-100 octane "pump gas") so it takes a lot more pump to run E85 than E0 (a rough number is 1.5 gal of E85 has the same energy density of 1 gallon of E0). Don't look at the HP in isolation to make a decision, a 1000hp E85 build is going to require more fuel flow (and thus injectors, pumps, etc.) than a 1000hp E0 build

On any multi-pump setup make sure you understand the failure mode and how the PCM/tune reacts. Many an engine has come apart because one pump of a multi-pump setup died but the other pump(s) stayed working grenading the engine as it went super-lean. If a vendor is selling a "multi-pump drop in kit" ask them how they protect against single pump failures at high flow rates.
Thanks for your interesting comments. It is my understanding that about 35% more E85 is needed to produce the same level of performance as 1 gallon of 93 octane and is likely the reason 1300cc/min are required to prevent high duty cycles.

Good point regarding the failure rate of a triple pump system but is a statistics that is not often discussed by tuners and on forums. Would be great if folks on the forum discussed this potential issue if it exists with the Trackhawk pumps. It appears that folks with the 1025S package have been ok with these pumps. I would think that the same would be true of the dual pump configuration currently in the Trackhawk. Does anyone know if one of the two dual fuel pumps in Trackhawks, Redeye or Demons have failed? Also, can someone verify the fuel flow rate of the Trackhawk fuel pumps? Thanks for the discussion.
 

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I have dual Walbro 450 high pressure pumps in my S2000 and on e85 and ID2200 injectors, they will support over 1000 whp, but the F20c Honda head is super efficient. Not sure if the added injectors, cylinders and head efficiency makes any difference with the TH, so maybe over 1000 whp is pushing it?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The stock trackhawk pumps are dual 430LPH. What we notice was that our S1150 package is the highest you can go on stock pump without a boost a pump. Our S1150 puts down 955hp and 877tq to the wheels
Thanks for your information. In your experiences, have y'all ever seen a Trackhawk pump failure with your S1025 package? The S1150 package with BAP?


In looking at the fastest Trackhawks in the country, Livernois certainly has quiet a few in the top 10!
 

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Even if a single pump fails at WOT, you’ll likely lean out and lose the engine. A dual pump set up, oem or aftermarket, is no different

That said, if it’s a concern if yours, there are steps you can take to help ease the worry. They range from a variety of higher tech failsafes to simple lights on dash that illuminate with 2nd pump activation.

The blue light saved my bacon once. Hobbs switch boost connection popped off mid run, light went out when it wasn’t supposed to and caught my eye as afr went lean. Without it, I likely would not have noticed a thing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Even if a single pump fails at WOT, you’ll likely lean out and lose the engine. A dual pump set up, oem or aftermarket, is no different

That said, if it’s a concern if yours, there are steps you can take to help ease the worry. They range from a variety of higher tech failsafes to simple lights on dash that illuminate with 2nd pump activation.

The blue light saved my bacon once. Hobbs switch boost connection popped off mid run, light went out when it wasn’t supposed to and caught my eye as afr went lean. Without it, I likely would not have noticed a thing


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is what I like about the AEM Infinity on my S2000. I have several pressure sensors on the engine that it monitors and if pressure goes below a certain threshold, it makes the necessary adjustments or shuts the engine off altogether before any damage can occur. And it does this at lightning speed.
 

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Given your parameters you are in good shape. TrackHawks use the dual fuel pumps. Until you get over 850 Whp you do not need to worry about this.

I have some more actual pump data and dyno data to post soon. Along with a lower cost pump improvement than a triple pump.

The biggest issue is fuel tank level. You need to be well over 1/2 tank to be safe. These beasts launch so hard the fuel is slammed back against the baskets inside and the tank you can get intermittent pickup.

Cheers
Bob
 

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I went with a triple fuel pump to run e85 with my magnuson2650.

Huge fuel line... Huge PITA to install... Real hard to run the fuel lines nicely as they are triple the size of the stock fuel lines.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I went with a triple fuel pump to run e85 with my magnuson2650.

Huge fuel line... Huge PITA to install... Real hard to run the fuel lines nicely as they are triple the size of the stock fuel lines.
Interesting point JohnWGW and understand your need to do so. Although I have focused the discussion on the TH fuel pumps ad E85, I would appreciate a discussion on the need to increase fuel line sizes if the stock TH fuel pumps are used. I would think not but has anyone done so below the 850 hp upper limit of the pumps? I do know the stock fuel filter must be changed to a stainless steel filtration media due to incompatibility of E85 and OEM filter.
 

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Where did you hear this about the fuel filter? I haven’t seen anything from anyone saying the fuel filter is not E85 compatible. I did a quick google and didn’t find anything there. Is this coming from the same people telling you that you need to upgrade the fuel pump?
 

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Interesting point JohnWGW and understand your need to do so. Although I have focused the discussion on the TH fuel pumps ad E85, I would appreciate a discussion on the need to increase fuel line sizes if the stock TH fuel pumps are used. I would think not but has anyone done so below the 850 hp upper limit of the pumps? I do know the stock fuel filter must be changed to a stainless steel filtration media due to incompatibility of E85 and OEM filter.

I'm not sure what size the stock fuel lines are, but -6 AN fuel lines are plenty to support WELL over 1000 whp on e85. I went overkill on my other car with -10 feed and -8 return before I knew this and those huge lines were a pain to run up to the tank with the limited space on that car. At least I'm setup to support over 2000 whp on e85 though. LOL
 
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